I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:26 pm

Arnier the fallen wrote:
Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

It worked during the English, French, American, Mexican, and Texan Revolution. Canada worked with peace, but I'm pretty sure that's just because England got sick of them.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:29 pm

Vulgruff Today at 12:26 am
.
Arnier the fallen wrote:

Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

Arnier the fallen wrote:

then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen
)
Vulgruff Today at 12:26 am

It worked during the English, French, American, Mexican, and Texan Revolution. Canada worked with peace, but I'm pretty sure that's just because England got sick of them.

So why would a country give into the demands of people who are killing their soldiers unless they were losing the war? You don't give in to people like that.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Arnier the fallen on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:33 pm

Lord Nerevar wrote:
So why would a country give into the demands of people who are killing their soldiers unless they were losing the war? You don't give in to people like that.

[/thread] lol!
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:36 pm

Okay, it's down to the grit of it. I think without the dragonborn playing any role in either side, the Stormcloaks would win. They know the land, and while some Nords fight for the Empire the majority of their forces during the game are Imperial. If you look at an occasion when an army invades a harsh land, such as Skyrim, they are repelled.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Arnier the fallen on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:37 pm

Vulgruff wrote:
Arnier the fallen wrote:
Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

It worked during the English, French, American, Mexican, and Texan Revolution. Canada worked with peace, but I'm pretty sure that's just because England got sick of them.

yeah and how many wars have they had ? fighting for peace doesnt work theres always another fight always another war always another person disheartened and enraged enough with the outcome to start fighting again,
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Arnier the fallen wrote:
Vulgruff wrote:
Arnier the fallen wrote:
Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

It worked during the English, French, American, Mexican, and Texan Revolution. Canada worked with peace, but I'm pretty sure that's just because England got sick of them.

yeah and how many wars have they had ? fighting for peace doesnt work theres always another fight always another war always another person disheartened and enraged enough with the outcome to start fighting again,

Yeah but a hundred(s) of years later everyone of those countries is exactly where they wanted to be, (maybe not mexico, but that's their own fault.)
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Arnier the fallen on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:41 pm

Vulgruff wrote:Okay, it's down to the grit of it. I think without the dragonborn playing any role in either side, the Stormcloaks would win. They know the land, and while some Nords fight for the Empire the majority of their forces during the game are Imperial. If you look at an occasion when an army invades a harsh land, such as Skyrim, they are repelled.

if you want to state that then you can also state without the return of Alduin then the empire would have won, they had Ulfric ready for the chopping block, the only thing that could have saved him would be the indirect help from the Thalmor as mentioned in his dossier, but would they have risked it?
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Arnier the fallen on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:42 pm

Vulgruff wrote:
Arnier the fallen wrote:
Vulgruff wrote:
Arnier the fallen wrote:
Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

It worked during the English, French, American, Mexican, and Texan Revolution. Canada worked with peace, but I'm pretty sure that's just because England got sick of them.

yeah and how many wars have they had ? fighting for peace doesnt work theres always another fight always another war always another person disheartened and enraged enough with the outcome to start fighting again,

Yeah but a hundred(s) of years later everyone of those countries is exactly where they wanted to be, (maybe not mexico, but that's their own fault.)

and with peace talks it would have taken a handfull of years not hundreds, and how is mexico their own fault?
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:43 pm

Okay, it's down to the grit of it. I think without the dragonborn playing any role in either side, the Stormcloaks would win. They know the land, and while some Nords fight for the Empire the majority of their forces during the game are Imperial. If you look at an occasion when an army invades a harsh land, such as Skyrim, they are repelled.

The Legion is Skyrim is does not represent much of it's full strength, and I think that avalanches in the Pale Pass are restricting reinforcements from coming. Anyway, the Legion would not take it's full strength from the borders with the Second Aldmeri Dominion, though it could possible draw some more forces. Also, there are still enough Nords in the Legion that know that land well too, which I think does negate home advantage to a certain extent, and not all of Skyrim's climate is harsh. Historically, armies have typically been underprepared for campaigns in these harsh lands, whereas enough of the Legion know the climate of Skyrim, and how to handle it. If the Stormcloaks cannot easily defeat a small part of the Legion, they would have a much harder time once more forces reach Skyrim.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:44 pm

The return of Alduin is a crucial part of the story and can't be overlooked. By that statement I meant the Dragonborn stayed neutral.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:47 pm

Lord Nerevar wrote:
Okay, it's down to the grit of it. I think without the dragonborn playing any role in either side, the Stormcloaks would win. They know the land, and while some Nords fight for the Empire the majority of their forces during the game are Imperial. If you look at an occasion when an army invades a harsh land, such as Skyrim, they are repelled.

The Legion is Skyrim is does not represent much of it's full strength, and I think that avalanches in the Pale Pass are restricting reinforcements from coming. Anyway, the Legion would not take it's full strength from the borders with the Second Aldmeri Dominion, though it could possible draw some more forces. Also, there are still enough Nords in the Legion that know that land well too, which I think does negate home advantage to a certain extent, and not all of Skyrim's climate is harsh. Historically, armies have typically been underprepared for campaigns in these harsh lands, whereas enough of the Legion know the climate of Skyrim, and how to handle it. If the Stormcloaks cannot easily defeat a small part of the Legion, they would have a much harder time once more forces reach Skyrim.

The Legion would only be able to bring in very little forces if any at all. I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but I think in the end they would come out victorious. Legion solders would lose moral, dining on foreign soil. Eventually the Empire would just draw back, and realize the loss of men aren't worth it. It would be a lot like how Vietnam went for the america.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:47 pm

[/quote]

Vulgruff wrote:If a group of people want to be free, let them. End of story.

Arnier the fallen wrote:

then let them talk peacefully for freedom and peace not fight for it, afteral fighting for peace is a lot like fucking for virginity (not gunna happen)

Vulgruff wrote:

It worked during the English, French, American, Mexican, and Texan Revolution. Canada worked with peace, but I'm pretty sure that's just because England got sick of them.

Arnier the fallen wrote:

yeah and how many wars have they had ? fighting for peace doesnt work theres always another fight always another war always another person disheartened and enraged enough with the outcome to start fighting again,

Vulgruff wrote:

Yeah but a hundred(s) of years later everyone of those countries is exactly where they wanted to be, (maybe not mexico, but that's their own fault.)[quote]

I am not American, but I have heard many Americans say that the modern U.S is not what the Forefathers intended, and I can say from living in England that it is not exactly where we want to be. Well, it depends on who you ask, but the majority in my area would disagree.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Arnier the fallen on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:48 pm

Vulgruff wrote:The return of Alduin is a crucial part of the story and can't be overlooked. By that statement I meant the Dragonborn stayed neutral.

how is it crucial because it was caused by the civil war? or because i just ended the argument with on senetence Smile
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:52 pm

Arnier the fallen wrote:
Vulgruff wrote:The return of Alduin is a crucial part of the story and can't be overlooked. By that statement I meant the Dragonborn stayed neutral.

how is it crucial because it was caused by the civil war? or because i just ended the argument with on senetence Smile

No a crucial part of the story in Skyrim. Its a factor that happened. What side the Dragonborn chooses, if he even picks one is up to the person. Now go back to the roleplaying thread, I'd much rather roleplay with you than argue with you.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:52 pm

The Legion would only be able to bring in very little forces if any at all. I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but I think in the end they would come out victorious. Legion solders would lose moral, dining on foreign soil. Eventually the Empire would just draw back, and realize the loss of men aren't worth it. It would be a lot like how Vietnam went for the america.

Not so foreign for many, and the Stormcloaks could just as easily lose moral too, if a major enough blow was dealt, like the assassination of Ulfric. In game, not so much, but lore-wise, the official armed forces of the Third Empire would most likely be much better equipped than a group of rebels, and if the native Nords who side with the Empire can help with the lay of the land, the Stormcloaks will find their ambushes may not be so effective, and I am confident the Empire would win in an open field if an ambush was uncovered. I don't see why you can't just get a battle mage and use 'Detect Life'. Surely that would completely combat any attempts at ambush?
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:54 pm

Vulgruff Today at 12:52 am
.





Arnier the fallen wrote:

Vulgruff wrote:The return of Alduin is a crucial part of the story and can't be overlooked. By that statement I meant the Dragonborn stayed neutral.


how is it crucial because it was caused by the civil war? or because i just ended the argument with on senetence

No a crucial part of the story in Skyrim. Its a factor that happened. What side the Dragonborn chooses, if he even picks one is up to the person. Now go back to the roleplaying thread, I'd much rather roleplay with you than argue with you.

I think that the debate is refreshing. Of course, your RP is awesome so far, so I wouldn't mind progress in it.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:56 pm


Arnier the fallen wrote:

Vulgruff wrote:The return of Alduin is a crucial part of the story and can't be overlooked. By that statement I meant the Dragonborn stayed neutral.


how is it crucial because it was caused by the civil war? or because i just ended the argument with on senetence

No a crucial part of the story in Skyrim. Its a factor that happened. What side the Dragonborn chooses, if he even picks one is up to the person. Now go back to the roleplaying thread, I'd much rather roleplay with you than argue with you.

I still don't know why you mentioned it.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:56 pm

Lord Nerevar wrote:
The Legion would only be able to bring in very little forces if any at all. I'm not saying it would be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but I think in the end they would come out victorious. Legion solders would lose moral, dining on foreign soil. Eventually the Empire would just draw back, and realize the loss of men aren't worth it. It would be a lot like how Vietnam went for the america.

Not so foreign for many, and the Stormcloaks could just as easily lose moral too, if a major enough blow was dealt, like the assassination of Ulfric. In game, not so much, but lore-wise, the official armed forces of the Third Empire would most likely be much better equipped than a group of rebels, and if the native Nords who side with the Empire can help with the lay of the land, the Stormcloaks will find their ambushes may not be so effective, and I am confident the Empire would win in an open field if an ambush was uncovered. I don't see why you can't just get a battle mage and use 'Detect Life'. Surely that would completely combat any attempts at ambush?

If they executed Ulfric he would've just became a martyr, and mages can't use detect life at all times. I also think you way over estimate the amount of Nords in the Legieon. Most of the Empeial Legion you find in game is Imperial. I also think the Stormcloaks would have just as good weapons, with smiths like Erland Grey-Mane working with them.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:09 pm

That's more of gameplay mechanic I would have said, and there don't have to be huge numbers, I said enough to know the lay of the land. I think at the same time you underestimate the number of Nordic Loyalists, there are still many around. Not too large in number, but as I said, enough. While he may be a good smith, I think the smithies of the entire Empire would outproduce the few holds that the Stormcloaks have. Not all of their smithies would be dedicated to the civil war, but they've got smiths from all races, and many more too. The Stormcloaks may have some good weaponry and armour, but I doubt it rivals that of arguably the best fighting force on Tamriel. One mage might not be able to keep it up forever, but they would not need it in all situations, such as open land, and they could have mages rotating. The Empire does still include magically adept races, and they could still have high quality Battlemages like they did in the Third Era. I'm not talking about Helgen with Ulfric, I'm taking about either being captured again, killed in battle, or assassinated. The Rebellion could lost heart if the 'True Hight King' was killed. Also, equipment can be enchanted with Detect Life.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Vulgruff on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:19 pm

Lord Nerevar wrote:That's more of gameplay mechanic I would have said, and there don't have to be huge numbers, I said enough to know the lay of the land. I think at the same time you underestimate the number of Nordic Loyalists, there are still many around. Not too large in number, but as I said, enough. While he may be a good smith, I think the smithies of the entire Empire would outproduce the few holds that the Stormcloaks have. Not all of their smithies would be dedicated to the civil war, but they've got smiths from all races, and many more too. The Stormcloaks may have some good weaponry and armour, but I doubt it rivals that of arguably the best fighting force on Tamriel. One mage might not be able to keep it up forever, but they would not need it in all situations, such as open land, and they could have mages rotating. The Empire does still include magically adept races, and they could still have high quality Battlemages like they did in the Third Era. I'm not talking about Helgen with Ulfric, I'm taking about either being captured again, killed in battle, or assassinated. The Rebellion could lost heart if the 'True Hight King' was killed. Also, equipment can be enchanted with Detect Life.

I mentioned it because Arnier said at the begining of Skyrim the Empire was already going to kill Ulfric. It wasn't because of one of your comments.

The Empire could do these things, but they haven't. No matter how many Imperials they have that wouldn't stop them from freezing to death trying to siege Windhelm. Also, as far as front line troops, the Stormcloaks dominate the Imperial army. In skirmishes the Stormcloaks will win every time, maybe not the huge battles but all the Stormcloaks have to do is make the Empire think its not worth it anymore. This has commonly worked throughout history.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:44 pm

[quote]
I mentioned it because Arnier said at the begining of Skyrim the Empire was already going to kill Ulfric. It wasn't because of one of your comments.


Thanks, that clears up my confusion.

The Empire could do these things, but they haven't. No matter how many Imperials they have that wouldn't stop them from freezing to death trying to siege Windhelm. Also, as far as front line troops, the Stormcloaks dominate the Imperial army. In skirmishes the Stormcloaks will win every time, maybe not the huge battles but all the Stormcloaks have to do is make the Empire think its not worth it anymore. This has commonly worked throughout history. [quote]

I don't think the Legion would freeze to death to death sieging Windhelm, I'm sure they would be more prepared than some people in history (I'm looking at you, Hitler and Napoleon) knowing more about the region they were besieging than these two did. Also, the Russians had their technology more suited to the wintery climate, whereas there is little technologial difference between the Legion and Stormcloaks. In skirmishes, I do think the Stormcloaks need to rely on the element of surprise, and that if caught in the open, they will fall. A guerrilla war could make the Empire turn back, as you say, if enough casualties are inflicted or enough resources drained, but, I think it could go either way. Things could suddenly happen on either side, such as Ulfric having a heartattack, which we cannot forsee, and military plans on behalf of the Stormcloaks could fail too. If they attempted to assault somewhere is a large enough force, and the Imperials caught wind of it, say if the Stormcloaks fought they were winning and thought they were ending the Legion, but the Legion were using deception, and turned the tides on this force, the Rebellion could be severly weakened. I'm no military strategist, but I hope you get the point, one battle or event either way could win the war, such as Stalingrad or the Battle of Vienna, in real life.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  DanielStormblade on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:55 pm

Lord Nerevar, you are sounding like you and on the same side as our local Imperal Dog.
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Re: I claim 1/5 of this board for the Empire!

Post  Lord Nerevar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:58 pm

Lord Nerevar, you are sounding like you and on the same side as our local Imperial Dog.

I come here for the atmosphere.
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No dragonborn?

Post  james.steelhaven on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:22 am

Actually, without the Dragonborn, both sides would have lost- Alduin would have destroyed everything with his dragons.
So, who would win (Imp/Cloak) is a moot point- Alduin and his dragons would win by killing everything.

Take away Alduin and the Dragonborn, however, I would give the advantage to the Imps- they were going to kill Ulfric, and Tullius is no fool.
He is a strategic genius who in the span of 2 years (iirc) had just over half of Skyrim under Imperial control
(I'm counting Whiterun, Balgruff was a stats quo kinda guy, and the Empire likes its status quo).

Individual prowess on the battlefield counts for very little in the grand scheme of things, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
The Empire had the infrastructure and manpower in place (indeed, some Stormcloak missions involve attacking that infrastructure) to fuel its war machine.
Not to mention the Empire can call upon both the Mage's Guild and its Battlemages if things needed heating up.

I cannot see how a Stormcloak victory could be pulled off with Alduin and the Dragonborn out of the picture.
The Empire has too much going for it at the start of the game.
As for Ulfric's death, he was already loved or hated by his fellow Nords, his death wouldn't affect that much.

Now, before Vulgruff and Grimnir get their Stormcloaks in a bunch, I am not referring to the moral high ground of the war or the Cassius Beli.
I am very much in favor of the Stormcloaks and I always will be. I am only referring to the strategic situation of the war, and nothing else.
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